United Kingdom 2021 – GC Powerlist
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United Kingdom 2021

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Adrian Morris

Group general counsel | Tesco

Consumer products

Alex Scott-Gall

General counsel of the Investment Bank and Capital Release Unit | Deutsche Bank

Financials

Alex Scott-Gall successfully built a new capital release unit with no headcount increase and ensured a sensitive updating of legal risk was completed for the investment bank in a turbulent...

Alexander Simpson

General counsel | Amazon

Consumer products

Alexandra DeSouza

General counsel EMEA | Lightsource BP

Energy and utilities

I have been hugely impressed with Alexandra DeSouza of Lightsource BP. DeSouza has been grappling with the perennial issue of how to make the best use of internal resources across...

Alison Charnock

Head of legal | WM Morrison Supermarkets

Consumer products

Alison Charnock was effective with feeding the nation in the most difficult of times has been a central plank of the country’s success over the last 12-15 months. Charnock and...

Andrea Harris

Group chief counsel | WPP

Sports and media

Andrew Fleming

General counsel and company secretary | British Airways

Transport and infrastructure

Team size: 23 What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved in during the last year? There has been a lot going...

Andrew Watkins

General counsel and director of M&A | SIG

Materials and mining

Andrew Watkins was the sole in-house legal resource working on the 2020 restructuring of the SIG group’s financing facilities. Watkins is a committed, experienced general counsel, and his pragmatism, skills...

Angus McBride

General counsel | News UK

Sports and media

Legal team size: 25 What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved in during the last year? The successful defence of the...

Anna Suchopar

General counsel and company secretary | ASOS

Consumer products

Team size: Approximately 35 Major legal advisers: Slaughter & May, Lewis Silkin, DLA Piper How did you assist the employees of the company get through that really difficult period of...

Barbara Levi

Chief legal officer and external affairs | Rio Tinto

Energy and utilities

Ben Shillito

Head of digital services | Fujitsu UK

Information technology

Team size: Global team of 40. The global Legal, Commercial and Compliance function is over 250 What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have...

Bob Hoyt

Group chief legal officer | HSBC

Financials

Brona McKeown

General counsel and company secretary | British Land

Industrials and real estate

Carol Hui

Chief of staff and general counsel | Heathrow Airport

Transport and infrastructure

Team size: Around 20 Major legal advisers: Freshfields, BCLP, Pinsent Masons, Eversheds, Towerhouse Consulting, Owen White, Allen & Overy What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have...

Caroline Kenny

Associate general counsel | Facebook

Information technology

Major legal advisers: Osborne Clarke, RPC, White & Case, Covington What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved in during the last...

Catherine Johnson

Group general counsel | London Stock Exchange Group

Financials

Team size: Approximately 200 What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year? I was a principal in the planning and...

Chantelle Zemba

General counsel | Deliveroo

Information technology

What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved in during the last year? Some of the most important milestones from last year...

Chris Newby

EMEA general counsel and COO | AIG

Financials

Christian Keim

Vice president, head of international legal | Adobe

Information technology

Claire Chapman

General counsel | Capita

Industrials and real estate

Clare Thomas

General counsel and company secretary | BritVic

Food, beverages and tobacco

Team size: 13 lawyers, eight others Major legal advisers: Linklaters, Addleshaw Goddard, Lewis Silkin, Macfarlanes, Trethowans, Arthur Cox, CMS, Keystone Law, Lefosse What are the most important transactions and litigations...

Clare Wardle

General counsel and company secretary | Coca-Cola European Partners

Food

Team size: 90+ Major legal advisers: Slaughter and May, CMS, Ius Laboris What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year?...

Dan Guildford

General counsel | The Financial Times

Sports and media

Dan Kayne

General counsel (regions) | Network Rail

Transport and infrastructure

Team size: 30 lawyers Can you tell us about the O-Shaped Lawyer initiative? I have been leading this initiative over the last three years and it has gained significant momentum...

Dan Webster

Group general counsel | Harrods

Consumer products

Team size: Ten What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year? It was launching the Harrods Beauty business and Harrods...

David Eveleigh

Group general counsel and company secretary | Serco

Transport and infrastructure

Dean Nash

General counsel and company secretary | Wise

Financials

Team size: 18 Major legal advisers: Linklaters, Slaughter & May, Bird & Bird, Foot Anstey, Haug Partners, DLA Piper, Mattos Filo. What are the most important transactions and litigations that...

Edward Walker

General counsel | Abellio

Transport and infrastructure

Major legal advisers: Stephenson Harwood, Burges Salmon What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved in during the last year? Abellio is...

Elizabeth Messud

Group general counsel | Kingfisher

Consumer products

Team size: 60 What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year? The disposal of Kingfisher’s business in Russia, Castorama Russia,...

Elliot Wiseman

General counsel and chief compliance officer | Paysafe

Financials

Elspeth Vincent

Head of legal | Ecotricity

Energy and utilities

Team size: Six Major legal advisers: TLT, Dentons, Kilburn & Strode, Lux Nova What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last...

Emma Slatter

Europe chief officer, legal and regulatory | Visa

Financials

Emma Slatter oversees and aligns all legal, regulatory, compliance and government engagement matters for Visa in the UK and Europe in the fast-evolving payments landscape. She has recruited market leading...

Geoffrey Timms

General counsel and company secretary | Legal & General

Financials

Harpreet Sagoo

Head of group legal and compliance | SDL

Information technology

Team size: 10 Major legal advisers: Carr & Ferrell, DLA Piper, Dentons and Sullivan & Worcester What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have...

Heather Mitchell

Chief risk officer, global general counsel for investments and head of EMEA | The Carlyle Group

Financials

Team size: 15 What were the most important transactions and litigations that you’ve been involved with, during the last year? Rather than an individual transaction, it has to be how...

Hugh Pugsley

UK general counsel | HSBC

Financials

Team size: 53, with additional support from HSBC group legal teams and contractors and secondees What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been...

Imraan Patel

Group general counsel, company secretary | EG Group

Transport and infrastructure

Imraan Patel and the In house team at Euro Garages are immensely driven, dedicated and entrepreneurial. Alongside expanding into new jurisdictions Patel has been involved in notable acquisitions, all the...

James Darbyshire

Chief counsel | Financial Services Compensation Scheme

Financials

Team size: 15 Major legal advisers: Addleshaw Goddard, Bevan Brittan, Burges Salmon, Burness Paull, Clifford Chance, Dentons and Eversheds Sutherland What are the most important transactions, litigations, or other major...

Jane Ivinson

General counsel and member of the executive management committee | Insight Investments

Financials

Jeremy Barton

General counsel | KPMG

Commercial and professional services

Team size: 70 Major legal advisers: Linklaters, Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer, Orrick, Herbert Smith Freehills, Eversheds Sutherland, DLA Piper What have been the most important transactions and litigations that you’ve been...

Joe Souto

Chief legal officer | EDF

Energy and utilities

Jonathan Bamber

General counsel | Liverpool Football Club

Sports and media

Jonathan Bamber and the Liverpool Football & Athletic Club (LFC) inhouse team have had to deal with the significant impact of Covid-19 on LFC’s business and indeed the football industry...

Jonathan Cope

General counsel and company secretary | RSA

Financials

Julian Homerstone

General counsel and company secretary | Virgin Atlantic

Transport and infrastructure

The airline industry is one which appears to have been particularly negatively affected by anti-Covid measures. What were some of the first things you did to safeguard the business? There...

Justine Campbell

General counsel | National Grid

Energy and utilities

Kate Burns

Former general counsel and company secretary | Notonthehighstreet

Consumer products

Team size: Three Major legal advisers: Osborne Clark, Keystone What would you say are the most important transactions and litigations that you’ve been involved in, in the last year? The...

Kate Cheetham

Group general counsel and company secretary | Lloyds

Financials

Team size: Approx 350 excluding secondees What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year? The first thing to mention would...

Kate Tyers

General counsel | Moonpig

Consumer products

Keith Austin

Senior vice president, head of legal services UKIEEMEA | DHL

Transport and infrastructure

Team size: 60 What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year? The negotiation of contracts associated with the setting up...

Kirin Kalsi

General counsel | E.On UK

Energy and utilities

Kirin Kalsi has been everything we could have hoped for. She has been very positive, always ensuring she was available for call, and has given really valuable advice to us....

Kirsty Cooper

Group general counsel and company secretary | Aviva

Financials

Liz Tanner

Group general counsel | SSE

Energy and utilities

Lucy Vernall

Company secretary, general counsel and chief people officer | Funding Circle

Financials

Team size: 22 What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year? The most important transaction the team has been involved...

Maaike de Bie

General counsel and company secretary | easyJet

Transport and infrastructure

Team size: Just under 100 What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year? A combination of investigations, litigations, a judicial...

Manu Chopra

General counsel UK | CBRE Investment Management

Financials

Team size: Three Major legal advisers: Jones Day, BCLP, Linklaters, Clifford Chance, CMS, Penningtons Manches Cooper What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in...

Mark Amsden

Group general counsel and chief risk and governance officer | Royal Mail

Transport and infrastructure

Team size: 40 in the UK Major legal advisers: Addleshaw Goddard, Bryan Cave Leighton Paisner, Herbert Smith, DAC Beachcroft, Weightmans, Dentons, Slaughter and May, Macfarlanes What are the most important...

Mark Chapman

General counsel | Nationwide Building Society

Financials

Team size: 55 What were the main changes to your working life during the initial Covid lockdown? Overall, a lot more contact with others. I used to have once weekly...

Mark Gregory

General counsel | Rolls-Royce

Transport and infrastructure

Team size: 500 overall with around 40 lawyers What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved in during the last year? The...

Mark Maurice-Jones

General counsel UK and Ireland | Nestlé

Food

Team size: 14 What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year? Firstly, a joint venture called PODBACK recently announced by...

Mark Schwartz

Vice president and associate general counsel, Mobility Technologies | Vontier

Industrials and real estate

What were the main steps you took to protect the business once it became clear we were in the midst of an unprecedented challenge? During these unprecedented times the business...

Martin Bowen

General counsel | Dyson

Consumer products

Matt Wilson

General counsel | Fremantle

Sports and media

Mel Rowlands

Group general counsel | Smiths Group

Industrials and real estate

Team size: 65, excluding Group HSE team What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year? The legal team played its...

Michael Shaw

General counsel | NatWest

Financials

Mine Hifzi

Former general counsel and chief corporate affairs officer | Virgin Media

Telecommunication services

Monica Risam

Group general counsel and company secretary | Lombard International

Financials

Team size: 50 Major legal advisers: Allen & Overy, Baker McKenzie, DLA Piper & Linklaters What were the main difficulties your company faced during the initial Covid-19 lockdown? The Covid-19...

Munesh Mahtani

General counsel EMEA | Via Transportation

Transport and infrastructure

Team size: Six Major legal advisers: Burges Salmon, DLA Piper, Fried Frank, Ropes & Gray, Taylor Wessing What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you...

Neil Laventure

Vice president legal EMEA | GSK

Healthcare

Team size: 30 Major legal advisers: Slaughter and May, Allen & Overy, CMS, Addleshaw Goddard What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during...

Neil Murrin

General counsel and director, regulatory affairs and group company secretary | Trainline

Information technology

Team size: 14 Major legal advisers: Baker McKenzie, White & Case, Freshfields, Deloitte, Gide Loyrette Nouel, Jeantet What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved...

Nick Folland

General counsel and company secretary | Marks and Spencer

Consumer products

Team size: 18 Major legal advisers: Allen & Overy; Dentons; Bird & Bird; Stobbs What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved...

Nigel Paterson

General counsel and company secretary | Dixons Carphone

Consumer products

Team size: 52 comprising legal, company secretariat, financial services compliance, business standards and risk management and insurance Major legal advisers (United Kingdom): Addleshaw Goddard, Bristows, Clyde & Co, DAC Beachcroft,...

Olga Garcia

General counsel and head of corporate affairs | Cubico Invest

Financials

Team size: 15 What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year? Over the past year, I have been involved in...

Paul Lister

Director of legal services and company secretary | Associated British Foods

Food

Team size: 75-80 Major legal advisers: Allen & Overy, Addleshaw Goddard, CMS, Herbert Smith Freehills, Macfarlanes What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have...

Penny Dudley

Chief legal officer | Bupa

Consumer products

Philip Bramwell

Group general counsel | BAE Systems

Industrials and real estate

Team size: Over 300 What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved in during the last year? At its height, the Covid...

Philip Price

Group general counsel | TP ICAP

Financials

How did you adapt to the initial shock of the Covid-19 lockdown? The standout thing for me was how our individual staff members responded to it. You can build as...

Quentin Zentner

General counsel | The Phoenix Group

Financials

Team size: approximately 70 lawyers, company secretaries and administration staff Major legal advisers: Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom; CMS; Linklaters; Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer; Hogan Lovells; Clyde & Co; Pinsents;...

Rachael Carolan

General counsel and director of policy | what3words

Information technology

Team size: Three Major legal advisers: Lewis Silkin, CMS, Ashfords What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved in during the last...

Raj Roy

General counsel UK and Ireland | Centrica

Energy and utilities

Raj Roy is a focused lawyer who commands respect. He has engendered a culture of achievement at Centrica, where lawyers are encouraged to take ownership, seek opportunity and be courageous....

Ritva Sotamaa

Chief legal officer and group secretary | Unilever

Consumer products

Team size: 430 What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year? Undoubtedly, the unification of Unilever’s dual-headed legal structure. It...

Rob Bennett

General counsel and company secretary | Costcutter Supermarkets Group

Consumer products

What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved in during the last year? Responding to the pandemic and preparing for Brexit aside,...

Rob Booth

General counsel and company secretary | The Crown Estate

Industrials and real estate

Team size: 20 Major legal advisers: Bryan Cave Leighton Paisner, Hogan Lovells, CMS, Burges Salmon, Womble Bond Dickinson, Town Legal What are the most important transactions and litigations that you...

Rosemary Martin

Group general counsel and company secretary | Vodafone

Telecommunication services

Rupert Hopley

Group general counsel and company secretary | Informa

Sports and media

Ruth Pearson

General counsel | LendInvest

Financials

Team size: Three legal and three compliance What are the most important transactions and litigations that you have been involved in during the last year? We managed to close our...

Ruwan De Soyza

General counsel | Xplor

Financials

Sabine Chalmers

Group general counsel | BT

Telecommunication services

Team size: 289 Major legal advisers: UK Panel firms are Addleshaw Goddard, Allen & Overy, BCLP, Bird & Bird, Covington & Burling, CMS, DAC Beachcroft, DWF, Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer, Lewis...

Sarah Jones

General counsel | BBC

Sports and media

Simon Cliff

General counsel | City Football Group

Sports and media

Team size: 30 (20 lawyers and ten non-legal professionals) Major legal advisers: Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer, Clifford Chance, Paul Hastings, Pinsent Masons, Gateley, Squire Patton Boggs, Centrefield What are the most...

Simon Croxford

General counsel, investment bank and EMEA | UBS

Financials

Team size: 160 for Investment Bank What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved in during the last year? It is difficult...

Simone Davina

General counsel United Kingdom, Ireland, Netherlands | Siemens Energy

Industrials and real estate

Team size: approximately 25 What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved in during the last year? During the last year we...

Sonya Branch

General counsel and executive director for the legal directorate | Bank of England

Financials

Team size: 180 What were the main steps you took to protect the business once it became clear we were in the midst of an unprecedented challenge? The pace at...

Spencer Davis

General counsel | Daily Mail and General Trust

Sports and media

Team size: Fewer than 25 Major legal advisers: Slaughter & May, Baker McKenzie, Reed Smith, Bird & Bird, Squire Patton Boggs, Lewis Silkin What are the most important transactions and...

Stephen Lerner

General counsel and director of regulatory affairs | Three

Telecommunication services

Team size: 75 (including 25 lawyers) Major legal advisers: Constantine Cannon, Baker McKenzie, Shoosmiths, Lewis Silken, Linklaters, Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer What are the most important transactions and litigations that you...

Stephen Shapiro

Group general counsel and company secretary | Barclays

Financials

Terra Potter

General counsel EMEA, APAC and Industrial | Hexcel Corporation

Materials and mining

Team size: Four Major legal advisers: DLA Piper and K&L Gates What are the most important transactions, litigations or other major projects that you have been involved in during the...

Tom Hambrett

Head of legal, director | Revolut

Financials

Tom Hodge

General counsel | Glendower Capital

Financials

Tom Hodge has developed in-house processes to aggregate deal and fundraising data and map market trends to seek competitive advantage in transactions and fundraising. He has also developed procedures for...

Trudi Charles

Assistant general counsel | BP

Energy and utilities

For over 30 years, The Legal 500 has been analysing the capabilities of law firms across the world. In this series, The Legal 500, in collaboration with Legal Business, GC Magazine and The In-house Lawyer, is turning its attention to the in-house function, and recognising those corporate counsel who are driving the legal business forward.

The GC Powerlist is a series of publications highlighting the most influential in-house lawyers and legal teams in business today. I would like to express my personal thanks to our headline sponsor Pinsent Masons and associate sponsor Alvarez & Marsal for supporting this publication. A special mention must also go to the in-house lawyers that took time to speak to us throughout the process, as well as to the research team that worked on this GC Powerlist publication.

David Burgess
Publishing Director
The Legal 500 Series

For this year’s GC Powerlist edition, we focused our research efforts around the theme of ‘resilience and recovery’. We chose this to reflect the transitional nature of the response to the Covid-19 crisis that has endured since our 2020 edition; while there is still certainly a hangover from the lockdown and its attendant business disruptions, the UK’s general counsel have been instrumental in stabilising the situation and returning to a growth phase. Many of the more fortunate companies, as you will see in the following pages, have even been able to capitalise on the situation.

The survey produced some interesting results. One of the most encouraging is that there is evidence that general counsel in the UK have increased their face-to-face time with the top brass of their organisations. Over half of respondents agreed that they have been more involved in c-suite matters in the period following the pandemic, with 39% strongly agreeing with this assessment. Only 7% disagreed, with none strongly disagreeing.

Looking back at the pandemic, the UK’s general counsel appear to have been putting their own people first and foremost. When discussing the greatest challenge of the past twelve months, the most common answer was safeguarding employee health and wellbeing. This points to a collaborative and compassionate corporate culture which prevails at many of the companies which feature in the 2021 UK GC Powerlist, which is something to be celebrated. Further insight into the difficulties faced by our in-house counsel can be gleaned from the fact that increased workload was the second-most common response. ‘We were required to manage the additional Covid-related workload on top of business as usual, most of which did not slow down’, reported one individual.

What about the verdict on home working going forward? Apparently, a resounding ‘yes’! All of the GCs who responded to our survey said at least some team members would be continuing with some form of flexi-working going forward. A little over half even said they would be expecting all of their team members to be partially or fully home-working from now on.

I’d like to say a heartfelt thank you to everyone – successful or unsuccessful in making the final shortlist – who spoke to us for this new-look edition of the UK GC Powerlist, and to Elisha Juttla, Mark McAteer and everyone else in our research team who worked on producing this year’s edition. Stay tuned for more GC Powerlists all over the world soon as our publishing schedule returns to some sort of normality in the coming months.

Joe Boswell
Head of Research:
GC Powerlist series

Pinsent Masons

Pinsent Masons logo

Resilience and Recovery

The global pandemic has impacted our lives in so many ways. It’s sharpened our awareness of mental health and wellbeing, reminded us of the importance of connecting with people and re-engaged us with our communities. Businesses too have learned how to operate under the most challenging of circumstances, forced into drastically flexing and adapting to an ever-changing environment simply to continue operating.

Yet while so much has changed, the climate emergency has not. We should, indeed must, move from inertia to momentum in response to the existential threat posed to our planet by climate change and biodiversity loss. The pandemic will accelerate change. Agility, vigilance, and resilience will be critical to sustain our relevance. Climate change is inevitable, so if we don’t like change we will like irrelevance even less! It will be purposeful organisations and actions which will sustain us environmentally and financially.

Now more than ever, organisations are under pressure to retain the trust of customers and employees. Expectations about standards of ethics, diversity and sustainability are high. And so, we see the dial starting to shift as success in the eyes of our stakeholders becomes more heavily influenced by how we do business. An organisation that measures itself against its impact on the environment, the communities it operates within, and how it supports its people and clients is rich not just in reputation, but in the talent and cognitive diversity it attracts. It becomes a business that people are proud to work for and that clients are proud to work with.

Perhaps it is this focus on purpose that has enabled businesses’ resilience throughout this challenging period, and certainly it will play a part in their recovery. But as we know, a business is only as good as its employees, and this year’s Powerlisters have shown resilience and an unwavering determination to remain successful in times of adversity. It recognises those who are playing an active role in influencing their organisations and staying ahead despite the pressures posed by the pandemic. They are engaging with the C-suite, taking on Board positions, and are deeply involved in the strategic direction of their companies.

They are human. They recognise when health and wellbeing, both physical and mental, is being stretched and are engaging with initiatives to support it. Most common among them all? They are visionary. Ready to innovate, collaborate and motivate to drive change.

It is collaboration and innovation with clients that helped to inspire the transformation occurring within Pinsent Masons as we become a purpose-led professional services business with law at the core. The time when legal services providers were simply trading vehicles for legal acumen is gone. Law remains at the heart of our business, but our diverse team comprises of a wider range of skillsets and expertise that mean we apply the right people, process and technology to every project.

This is what we do, but most importantly, as a purpose-led organisation we know why we are doing it.

Pinsent Masons is a firm that stands for something. We believe we have an obligation to make business work better for our people, clients and the communities that we operate within, and to bring that to life we build strong relationships based on trust, demonstrable ability and with shared ambitions to accomplish our goals.

Congratulations to everyone on this year’s Powerlist, who are each powerful reminders that despite the difficult environment we’re operating in, lawyers have an important role to play in effecting change.

Alvarez & Marsal

Alvarez & Marsal logo

About Alvarez & Marsal

Companies, investors and government entities around the world turn to Alvarez & Marsal (A&M) for leadership, action and results. Privately held since its founding in 1983, A&M is a leading global professional services firm that provides advisory, business performance improvement and turnaround management services. When conventional approaches are not enough to create transformation and drive change, clients seek our deep expertise and ability to deliver practical solutions to their unique problems.

With over 5,400 people across four continents, we deliver tangible results for corporates, boards, private equity firms, law firms and government agencies facing complex challenges. Our senior leaders, and their teams, leverage A&M’s restructuring heritage to help companies act decisively, catapult growth and accelerate results. We are experienced operators, world-class consultants, former regulators and industry authorities with a shared commitment to telling clients what’s really needed for turning change into a strategic business asset, managing risk and unlocking value at every stage of growth.

Jones Day Hong Kong Roundtable 2024

The Legal 500 was thrilled to join a selection of top Jones Day partners and a hand-picked group of 15 the most prominent GCs in Hong Kong for a freewheeling and no-holds-barred discussion on geopolitical risk management at a time of global transition. Steve Brogan, managing partner of Jones Day from 2002-2022 flew over to lend his considerable expertise to the discussion, as did Partner-in-Charge Hong Kong Joelle Lau. Joining them to give expert briefings on the topics of the day were partners Peter Wang, Dr Qiang Xue, James Fidler, Samuel Ngo and Charles Chau. The conversation moved from sanctions and counter sanctions, to the increasing pre-eminence of the Asian economy, to the philosophy of the rule of law in times of crisis.