Simon Fitzpatrick leads the team at Boodle Hatfield LLP that frequently advises on the big art litigation matters. It also advises galleries, artists, auction houses and HNWIs on significant purchases of art worth millions of pounds. Fitzpatrick is a known name for his specialist knowledge of cases involving auction house misattribution, authenticity and provenance claims. Natasha Hassall specialises in advising on heritage property issues where there are substantial art collections. Eleanor Sepanski’s clients include wealthy families and individuals with large art collections as well as high-profile artists and not-for-profit organisations. At associate level Fred Clark, Becky Shaw and Rebecca Foden are all well-regarded.
Art and cultural property in London
Other key lawyers:
Natasha Hassall; Becky Shaw; Eleanor Sepanski; Fred Clark; Rebecca Foden
‘Expert knowledge delivered in a user friendly manner. Very strong understanding of the commercial issues relating to art sales, and the preparation of consignment and sale agreements’.
‘Very good, responsive and helpful and not expensive’.
‘Boodle Hatfield’s art law practice is well-established and highly skilled and experienced across the whole range of disciplines relevant to the art market, from non-contentious matters such as contracts, wills and probate and taxation to litigation and dispute resolution’.
‘Simon Fitzpatrick has decades of experience of art litigation and has played a role in some of the leading cases in the field. Becky Shaw is extremely sharp with an incisive intelligence and an eye for detail as well as a practical approach’.
‘Simon Fitzpatrick and Fred Clark are building a successful Art and Cultural Property practice – based mainly, but not only, upon contentious work. Of particular note is their online offering of news and analysis – which is up to date and attractively presented’.
‘Simon Fitzpatrick and Fred Clark – both solid and knowledgeable‘.
‘Probably the leading art-litigation firm in London. Unrivalled expertise and experience in matters ranging from auctioneer’s negligence, title disputes and bailment claims’.
‘Simon Fitzpatrick is a fine team-leader. He is considered, consistent and clever with serious tactical nous‘.
Herman de Stern Foundation
The vibrant team at Charles Russell Speechlys LLP advises several world-famous contemporary art galleries. Rudy Capildeo and Tim Maxwell head the department that has acted in some of the most significant cases relating to leading international auction houses and is increasingly advising on a range of contentious and non-contentious issues pertaining to cultural property and antiquities for collectors and dealers. Another core of expertise is advising on the interplay between intellectual property, art and luxury assets. Robert Blower and Suzanne Marriott play a pivotal role in advising artists on a wide range of estate planning and tax issues as well as advising collectors, dealers, businesses and charitable trusts on a vast array of art-related matters. Petra Warrington, who joined the team as a senior associate from Hunters Law LLP, is highly regarded for her advice on the ownership, provenance, condition and authenticity of art and luxury assets.
Rudy Capildeo; Tim Maxwell
Other key lawyers:
Robert Blower; Suzanne Marriott; Petra Warrington
‘The pre-eminent art practice. Partners Rudy Capildeo and Tim Maxwell are at the top of their field. Extremely well connected and knowledgeable. Petra Warrington is exceptionally capable and a star of the future‘.
‘The lawyers can advise on all aspects of cultural property – on all fiscal and legal matters relating to chattels, contentious and non-contentious and are in my view one of the top teams in the UK for cultural property matters. They can advise dealers, auction houses, companies, owners, artists alike and their strength is that they cover every angle. They can advise on tax issues; exports; acquisitions; disposals/sales’.
‘They are extremely knowledgeable; always willing to help; can identify the issues and give succinct and clear advice and guidance and see through to what the real issue is and recommend practical solutions’.
‘Very pleasant to work with. Great knowledge of the area’.
‘Rudy Capildeo, Tim Maxwell – could not be more informed, helpful, constructive and supportive. Their advice and behaviour is exemplary. Their manner is always welcoming and they make themselves available to the best of their ability. We never are given the impression they are too busy to deal with us‘.
‘Approachable and knowledgeable. The CRS Art & Culture team is pragmatic and commercial. Rudy Capildeo is highly engaged in the global art market, understanding his clients’ needs and protecting their interests at every turn’.
‘Rudy Capildeo – personable, adaptable, supportive and a shrewd negotiator’.
‘The team I worked with was highly professional and experienced. The lawyers were extremely knowledgeable and a pleasure to work with. I would not hesitate in recommending them. I dealt with two partners, Tim Maxwell and Rudy Capildeo, who in addition to their extensive experience, were most generous with their time and advice. A successful outcome was achieved and I thoroughly enjoyed working with them both‘.
Friends of the National Libraries
Design and Artists Copyright Society; Artists’ Collecting Society
Pierre Valentin leads a first-rate team at Constantine Cannon LLP that advises various high-profile clients including foreign governments, some of the most prominent art collectors in the UK and abroad in addition to well-known contemporary artists, leading commercial galleries and museums. Other key clients include art investment funds, family offices, insurance companies and auction houses. Valentin represents clients in the High Court and Court of Appeal on matters of ownership, fraud and other issues such as Nazi restitutions, foreign nation recoveries and authenticity. There have been some changes to the team recently however. Penny Walker and Tom Christopherson have joined the practice. Azmina Jasani has secured an inhouse position and Till Vere Hodge is now at Payne Hicks Beach LLP. Fionnuala Rogers remains a consultant at the firm and advises on all aspects of art law including cultural property, repatriation and other areas relating to the seizure and the export of antiquities.
Other key lawyers:
Fionnuala Rogers; Penny Walker; Tom Christopherson
‘Pierre Valentin is very bright and is thoroughly familiar with the laws of multiple countries related to art and other collectibles. He has great negotiating skills and does it without offending the other side’.
‘Constantine Cannon is almost unique as a law firm focused on art and cultural property. Its industry experience is arguably unparalleled with a limited number of close peers and the reputation of its key partners within the sector, is equally high profile’.
‘Pierre Valentin is the founding partner and driving force of Constantine Cannon’s UK art and cultural law team. He is held in the highest regard by fellow professionals and clients in the visual arts space in particular and has a tremendous amount of knowledge built up over many years. When dealing with artists, artist estates or art businesses generally, his experience of commercial arrangements is crucial’.
‘The firm is truly partner led and the advice that comes is both comprehensive but also “pragmatic advice” rather than pages of caveats’.
The Line Art Walk
- Contributed to a variety of projects for The Line including artist commission agreements, loan agreements and exhibition agreements.
Farrer & Co has an excellent reputation for its art and cultural property expertise and is best-known for its work with the international super-rich. It advises on many family trusts both in the UK and overseas. Head of department is Adrian Parkhouse who excels in art litigation, and senior associate William Charrington is also developing a strong art-related disputes practice. James Carleton advises many commercial art dealers, private owners and collectors as well as other entities such as charities and banks on cross-border art, heritage law and philanthropy. The team also has an impressive art lending practice. Bethan Waters regularly advises lenders and borrowers on all aspects of finance and security where art is used as collateral. Julian Smith acts for some of the bigger historic house charities and private collections that are destined for public and charitable collections. Peter Wienand also plays a key role in this practice.
Other key lawyers:
James Carleton; Paul Jones; Bethan Waters; Julian Smith; Peter Wienand; Isabel Paintin; William Charrington
‘Adrian Parkhouse is top quality and, in terms of raw brain-power, one of the finest litigation solicitors in London. Clients rightly love him, because he gives top quality service and gets superb results. He’s also utterly unflappable in the most extreme circumstances. If I had an art-dispute, he’d be the only person I’d consider’.
‘Will Charrington is super clever, unbelievably hardworking, and an excellent lawyer. Top drawer for any art dispute’.
‘Farrer & Co was able to put together a team of specialists across IP and property law to support complex four-way negotiations on a series of contracts to facilitate the purchase, loan and lease of an exceptional piece of cultural property’.
‘There was no doubt the technical expertise was exceptional, but just as important was the lead partner’s (Paul Jones) ability to anticipate the other parties’ positions and next moves so that ultimately contentious issues did not prohibit the development of positive long term working relationships between the parties‘.
‘The ability to prioritise the ultimate goal of successful completion of the deal and identify acceptable compromises and solutions – the ability to work across different areas of law and to see the impact of one type of contract on another in a combined transaction – the ability to explain complex technical issues to a lay client to equip the client to make a decision and evolve the brief‘.
‘Strength in depth; clear and wide-ranging expertise in a niche market; confident and assured approach to the provision of advice’.
‘William Charrington (Senior Associate) is head-and-shoulders above many of his peers. His advice is always clear and given in a measured and digestible manner’.
The Art Fund
Natural History Museum
Victoria & Albert Museum
Imperial War Museum
Museum of London
Historic Royal Palaces
Dulwich Picture Gallery
Greenwich Foundation for the Old Royal Naval College
Mishcon de Reya LLP has one of the ‘most forward thinking, capable and high-profile art teams in London’ that is is co-headed by ‘art guru’ Karen Sanig and by the ‘equally impressive’ Amanda Gray. Its work spans all aspects of the art world and cultural heritage. The ‘extremely well-connected’ team advises galleries on buying, selling, exhibiting, loaning and moving art. In addition it is skilled at helping collectors on financing and on other issues relating to exporting, importing and bequeathing art to the nation. It is also adept at advising art institutions on exhibitions and auction houses on sales and due diligence. The practice has advised on some of the largest art transactions, the management of some of the most significant collections of cultural property and continues to be involved in some of the leading litigation in this area. Overall it is a ‘great team to have on your side’.
Amanda Gray; Karen Sanig
Other key lawyers:
Simon Chadwick; Abby Brindley
‘Karen Sanig came highly recommended from everybody with whom I spoke to in the art world both in the UK and abroad. Her well-deserved reputation for excellence preceded her and we have been more than impressed with her skill, knowledge and experience in the area, coupled with the fact that her years of high level art world experience inspire confidence‘.
‘We greatly value Karen Sanig’s speed of response, accuracy, clever and commercial approach and turning technical and difficult issues into user-friendly straightforward, good, tough advice. Karen is very responsive, whatever the timeline, she will be there to support us with reassuring and technically superb advice. She and her team will go the extra mile‘.
‘Karen Sanig is outstanding, knowledgeable, technically proficient and phenomenal at finding commercial and creative solutions to any technical and challenging issues. She is my number one choice of art lawyer’.
‘Excellent service and adaptability to client requests. Karen Sanig – amazing attention to detail and ability to find a solution to difficult issues’.
‘We found Mishcon to be extremely personable, highly professional, astute, shrewd but moreover extremely alive to the fact that what was to them ‘all in a day’s work’, was to us a matter of commercial life and death. We were always kept informed in a timely fashion. It has been a privilege to work with a group of such high calibre individuals at a premier organisation‘.
‘Karen Sanig is very experienced and it shows. She is personable, not standoffish, and funny. She is clearly a leader that her team look up to. Abi Brindley similarly was very personable and gained our confidence very quickly. She got to grips with the case very quickly. She mastered the detail in short order and was very clear and firm about what we needed to do to enable Mishcon to do their best for us’.
‘Simon Chadwick was always very clear in his requests for more information and detail and the deadlines for when we needed to provide it. He made sure to regularly inform and update us as to developments. He kept us amused with his lawyerly understatement, but it was clear that he was always in command of the situation and could read the other side accurately and see through their tactics‘.
‘The top team in town for art law. Karen Sanig and Amanda Gray have created a wonderful work environment and have covered the art and luxury asset spread perfectly. Amanda Gray is a fantastic solicitor: incredibly smart yet entirely approachable’.
Artist (prominent, house hold name)
Anthony d’Offay Limited
Art Africa Ltd
Camden Art Centre
Clore Wyndham Fine Art Limited
Ditchling Museum of Art & Craft
Halcyon Gallery Limited
Hales Gallery Limited
Institute of Contemporary Arts
London based gallery
Maranello Rosso Limited
Morgan Art Foundation
Museum of Everything
Oliver Sears Gallery Limited
Peking Art Associates Limited
Rothstein & Held Limited
Simon C Dickinson Limited
Skartstedt Gallery of London Limited
- Acted for Hales Gallery in a claim brought by the acclaimed artist Sir Frank Bowling OBE RA alleging breaches of his representation agreement.
- Represents world renowned art collector Ivor Braka who has a superlative personal collection of largely Modern British art which he has amassed over a period of more than 40 years.
- Acting for Maranello Rosso Limited in a £70m claim against auction house Bonhams, alleging (inter alia) unlawful means conspiracy, dishonest assistance in breach of fiduciary duty, and breach of contract, relating to a very large acquisition of world-renowned classic cars.
The versatile team at Stephenson Harwood acts on various significant transactions and disputes for the key players in the market. Led by the excellent Roland Foord the group acts for clients from a wide range of countries and is adept at handling complex cross-border matters. The practice has been busy advising on various Covid-19 matters, cryptocurrency and NFTs. Clients range from auction houses and dealers to museums and private collectors. It is skilled at handling major disputes relating to title and attribution as well as regularly advising on the sale and purchase of fine art, and other issues relating to exporting art and looted art. Guy Harper is recognised for his experience in contentious matters with a particular emphasis on claims arising from fine art.
Other key lawyers:
Alan Ward; Guy Harper
‘Among the top art law and cultural property practices, this firm is one of the most experienced in the business‘.
‘The art and cultural property team is led by Roland Foord, one of the most experienced and senior litigators in the City. Roland’s understanding of the art business is second to none. He is also liked and respected in equal measure for his client friendly, calm no-nonsense approach’.
‘The Art and Cultural property team benefits from drawing from a full service law firm, so you get real specialists in the relevant areas’.
‘Smaller art and cultural property practices try to advise across the very diverse areas of law that comprise art law: copyright, litigation, commercial, anti-money laundering without actually being specialists in any field.’
‘What Stephenson Harwood offers is specialists in all of these areas, which is more cost effective as the lawyer is a proper expert in its field.’
‘They are also good on offering fixed fees for chunks of work’.
‘Alan Ward is incredibly knowledgeable on all things AML-related and always available for a quick call to talk through AML risk decisions‘.
Qatar Museums Authority
Sadie Coles HQ Limited
The Society of London Art Dealers
Hazlitt Gooden & Fox Limited
The Royal College of Art
The Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings
- Instructed by Qatar Museums (‘QM’) on numerous matters over the course of the last year including the Dior Exhibition – Including advising on exhibition agreements with Christian Dior Couture SA and Musée des Arts Décoratifs.
- Acting as the go-to firm for Sadie Coles HQ Limited, the London based contemporary gallery, including advice in respect of a number of commissioned art works and representing the gallery’s artists in respect of commissions for installations in France.
- Acting on behalf of long-term client Christie’s on a range of matters, principally disputes.
Led by Mark Stephens the skilled team at Howard Kennedy LLP advises museums, galleries, dealers and public art organisations on a vast array of issues relating to the resolution of disputes and the recovery of stolen and looted items of art and cultural property. It also advises many charities, artists and estates as well as photographers, photo libraries and ultra-high-net-worth individuals on a whole host of issues. Daniel McClean is recommended; Alex Watt has an eclectic mix of clients including Middle Eastern art galleries and American art dealers; Elizabeth Morley is well-regarded; and Robert Lands has a particular focus on the visual arts sector.
Mark Stephens CBE
Other key lawyers:
Daniel McClean; Robert Lands; Alex Watt; Elizabeth Morley
Simon C Dickinson Ltd
Delahunty Ltd trading as Delahunty Fine Art
Simon C Dickinson Ltd
L A Louver
- Defending London art dealers Simon C Dickinson Ltd in a claim by the trustees of the Wemyss Heirlooms Trust, concerning the attribution of a painting described on its sale in 2014 as by Jean-Baptiste-Simeon Chardin and Studio.
- Acting for the Los Angeles art gallery LA Louver in a claim against the directors of Blain Southern Limited; a premier art gallery that fell into administration in January 2020.
Withers LLP has an excellent reputation for its work with the owners of significant art collections. It is adept at advising on funding issues relating to the purchase of art in a tax efficient manner. Under the direction of Eleni Polycarpou it is skilled at handling a whole host of complex contentious matters as well as having considerable strength on a wide array of other issues such as advising on complicated estate planning measures. It also garners praise for its considerable cross-border capabilities. The practice was pleased to add Sarah Barker to its ranks from Lee & Thompson LLP. Overall it is ‘superb at understanding and delivering on the client’s objectives’.
Eleni Polycarpou; Diana Wierbicki
Other key lawyers:
‘The firm is a pioneer in representing clients for matters relating to Art and culture property, and in particular on NFT and digital assets disputes, stolen art, restitution matters, contractual disputes. They are very cooperative and approachable but extremely professional at the same time’.
‘Eleni Polycarpou is very professional, hands on, experienced partner of the firm. Very approachable, organised, knowledgeable, skilled, fighter where need be, with great results’.
‘High profile team with strong expertise in the art market and litigation. Eleni Polycarpou leads the practice with outstanding skills. Her responsiveness and strategic mind make her stand’.
‘Withers, as a global firm, has for many years been leading lights on high profile international art and cultural property matters. Much of its profile in the industry has come from the efforts of Withers’ partners in New York and LA but they have always also had a strong UK team looking after private client and commercial matters for clients operating in the art and cultural property space’.
‘Sarah Barker has built up an excellent reputation in the world of art law over many years. She has recently joined Withers – it adds to Withers in the UK as far as being heavyweight in the art and cultural property space. She works with artists, galleries and collectors and her knowledge, approachability and deep interest in the sector lead to referrals’.
‘Very swift responses and very up to date on the information of the case. Eleni Polycarpou is very hands-on, responsive and approaches the file in a pragmatic manner’.
‘The team is very competent, knowledgeable in law and jurisprudence, friendly and accessible. It works efficiently and quickly. I have worked several times with Eleni Polycarpou, who is an outstanding lawyer, with a sharp eye on the files, a pragmatic approach and an excellent understanding of the issues’.
‘The practice can draw on Withers experience and expertise in its private client and commercial practices to provide an excellent all round service in this area. Eleni Polycarpou is brilliant with clients and has in-depth knowledge of the market’.
Client purchasing a Banksy
Victoria Miro Gallery
Heir to spoliated art
- Acting for an heir to an owner of Nazi looted art in a dispute between them and a company which provides services for the recovery of looted art which is the subject of ongoing proceedings in the Canadian courts.
- Providing a range of legal advice to Vortic (Vortic XR), a technology start-up which is the art world’s leading extended reality platform offering galleries and museums an opportunity to exhibit works of art and host exhibitions online using advanced AR and VR technology.
- Instructed by Victoria Miro Gallery on a wide variety of matters across the firm including contract, copyright, anti-money laundering compliance, dispute resolution, property/real estate and tax and advice in respect of an artwork from one of the gallery’s artists that had been stolen and recently resurfaced at an auction house.
Hunters Law LLP has a thriving art and cultural heritage practice that acts for a broad range of clients and much of its work has a complex international dimension. It is adept at advising auctioneers, valuers, dealers, collectors and public/private institutions on a wide range of contentious and transactional matters. Names to note include Julia Richards and Anastassia Dimmek. Petra Warrington is now at Charles Russell Speechlys LLP. Gregor Kleinknecht has recently left the firm to join Keystone Law.
Other key lawyers:
Julia Richards; Anastassia Dimmek
‘Personal service, up to date knowledge and efficient communication. Everything that you might hope for from a firm of such high standing- extremely able and knowledgeable’.
Ed Powles heads the practice at Maurice Turnor Gardner LLP that advises a diverse range of UK and non-UK resident artists (and their personal representatives), collectors, national galleries and museums, as well as philanthropists and entrepreneurs. The group also advises traditionally wealthy families who have extensive collections in their family homes. It works closely with its other departments to advise these clients on probate and tax matters, international estate planning, philanthropy and a whole host of other contentious and non-contentious contractual matters.
Other key lawyers:
Ceris Gardner; Jennifer Emms; Clare Maurice
‘They are committed to art and cultural property hosting various talks on the subject. They have excellent offshore clients’.
‘A very knowledgeable group with very good clients‘.
‘A wonderful group of solicitors to work with. Committed and generous with their time’.
‘Ed Powles has a wealth of knowledge and an approachable manner. Clare Maurice is diligent and very impressive. Ceris Gardner is great, as is Jennifer Emms’.
Pinsent Masons LLP
Pinsent Masons LLP has strong international capabilities with Richard Hart at the helm. It has a cross-disciplinary team that is adept at advising ultra-high-net-worth individuals including Royal Family members, artists, cultural institutions and government bodies on all issues relating to their collections. Hart advises clients on structuring their collections and on sales, purchases and loans. He also advises them on their philanthropic endeavours such as creating cultural foundations and facilitating donations to cultural institutions. In addition he routinely works with artisans and interior designers.
Other key lawyers:
Michael Fletcher; Oliver Tapper
‘Excellent subject knowledge, diligence and collaboration with entities to gain a firm understanding of the remit’.
‘Richard Hart is a stand out partner to work with. His breadth of knowledge in different fields is particularly impressive’.
‘I have worked closely on two art/cultural property cases with Michael Fletcher and Richard Hart, both partners. They have both real knowledge of the sector, and an enthusiasm for it’.
‘Michael Fletcher is a litigator, whom I have known and worked for over many years. He is very measured and careful in the advice he gives and the approach he takes, with a great eye for detail, a sense of humour and an obvious enjoyment of his work. He has an excellent associate working with him – Oliver Tapper. Both highly recommended’.
Saffery Champness (through their clients)
Various members of Middle Eastern Royal Families and Ultra High net worth individuals, and their corporate vehicles
German private collector
- Advising the cultural Al Thani Collection Foundation set up by a prominent Qatari family on the loan to Hôtel de la Marine of numerous artworks from its Collection to be showcased as part of temporary exhibitions.
- Advised on a series of purchases for a client of a set of Greco Roman antiquities from a London gallery. The purchases involved instructing scientific experts and counsel on the wider provenance piece.
- Advising on the impact of the Ivory Act on a client’s collection of objects (170 pieces) with elephant ivory content and in particular as to the effect of pieces being non-exempt from restrictions on sale.
Hugo Smith and Susan Johnson co-head the art and cultural property offering at BDB Pitmans that works closely with its private wealth, charities and other departments to advise clients on a wide spectrum of issues such as the sale and purchase of art as well as the formation of charities to hold art and cultural property. It is also skilled at advising public sector bodies on commissioning agreements for public art in addition to providing tax and structuring advice to the owners of art and cultural property.
Hugo Smith; Susan Johnson
‘They have very good people in it who have art experience. Very knowledgeable people’.
‘As private client solicitors, most of their clients are long standing and their sound advice and guidance is beneficial to each family generation’.
The versatile team at Forsters LLP has a wealth of experience in acting for collectors, artists, galleries and auction houses in addition to the owners of historic houses. Clients also include globally renowned living artists, as well as private collectors and art institutions with culturally significant assets. Catherine Hill heads the team and is recommended for her work on a range of legacy, succession and taxation issues. Rupert Mead advises the owners of landed estates on a myriad of taxation issues.
Other key lawyers:
Rupert Mead; Jo Thompson; Rebecca Meade
‘A good and knowledgeable art team’.
‘The Forsters team is very approachable and knowledgeable – a good combination. The lawyers are also very nice to work with while getting the work done. They are committed to their work and are very good at what they do but they don’t let this impede on their personal and friendly way in which they do it. It is a friendly service‘.
‘Forsters is able to provide my clients with a holistic service but with a private client approach to service standards. I know that entrepreneurial and creative clients are in very safe hands with the partners and associates of Forsters and the communication with myself and colleagues is always very joined up and thought through by Forsters‘.
‘Catherine Hill has been terrific in handling my clients’ Will and Estate planning issues. She is pragmatic and creative and has a very good way of handling difficult subjects‘.
‘Forsters’ team is a pleasure to work with and its expertise is second to none. Rebecca Meade and Jo Thompson are fantastic people to work with. They are completely on top of their briefs, and very friendly, which makes all the difference‘.
Under the leadership of James Bacon the skilled team at Payne Hicks Beach LLP advises individuals, trustees, art dealers and charities on various issues including on the taxation and administration of high-value private art collections. The group is also recommended for its work on planning matters as they relate to heritage fixtures where these are subject to listed buildings status. Rosamond McDowell is well regarded and Till Vere-Hodge joined the practice as a partner from Constantine Cannon LLP.
Other key lawyers:
Rosamond McDowell; Till Vere-Hodge
‘The people are dedicated, incredibly hardworking, professional and always contactable. Their professionalism, understanding and adaptability‘.
‘Friendly, discreet and lethal in litigation. Rosamond McDowell – A joy to work with, combining tremendous fun with astonishing efficiency. James Bacon – Wise, calm and collected, a family could not have a more reliable solicitor of the old school’.
‘Rosamond McDowell – A joy to work with, combining tremendous fun with astonishing efficiency’.
‘James Bacon – Wise, calm and collected, a Family could not have a more reliable solicitor of the old school’.
‘As private client solicitors they offer well informed advice and guidance to families and have done so through the generations.’